Transcript - ABC Drive with Richard Glover

RICHARD GLOVER: You’re listening to the ABC in Sydney. The Monday Political Forum. Paul Fletcher is the Member for Bradfield and the Minister for Territories et cetera,

Wendy Machin is the Deputy President of the NRMA, and John Kaye is a Greens MLC. They’re our guests, thank you for coming in.

Now France responds to its horrors by an intense bombing operation against ISIS targets in Syria, meanwhile people like Tony Abbott say Australia should play a greater role in the Syrian crisis. Is this sort of terrorism going to be defeated in Syria or at home, and what are the ways in which the West’s response could make things better, and in what ways might the West’s response possibly make things worse?

Paul Fletcher?

PAUL FLETCHER: Well Richard, I think the first thing is to bear in mind, I guess, the values of Western civilisation, which really are being attacked here. And I don’t think it’s an accident that Paris was chosen as the location for this attack, a city so associated with the Enlightenment, and with the development of values that are central to Western civilisation – separation of church and state, freedom of association, democratic values – and those of course are anathema to Daesh, who want to impose a theocratic state across much of the Middle East. So we need to, I think, start by recognising that there is a very fundamental clash of values here, and we need to stand up for our values and not be intimidated. This is an attempt to intimidate, and we are in a battle over values.

Now, therefore it’s important that we keep doing what we’re doing, first of all. Now, secondly, as Prime Minister Turnbull has said, it is very important that there is progress towards a political solution. Ultimately that is what is needed, and that will require the major world powers to come together.

RICHARD GLOVER: [Interrupts] And it essentially means the Bashir regime, as hideous as it is, will be somehow cemented into power, doesn’t it?

PAUL FLETCHER: Well I …

RICHARD GLOVER: [Interrupts] Isn’t that what it’s code for?

PAUL FLETCHER: Well I think that is a judgement that the leading world power needs to make, and we of course will do our bit constructively as part of that. Now, of course we are already involved in the military efforts against Daesh in Syria, and we are working with the US and other major nations. But ultimately, as the Prime Minister has said, there needs to be a political solution to this, and this requires the world’s major powers to come together.

RICHARD GLOVER: Do we- you know, the French are bombing Raqqa at the moment, which is a difficult thing to do because it’s full of civilians. Is there a possibility that, while you understand the ferocity of the response, that it could be counterproductive?

PAUL FLETCHER: Well, look it’s a very complex situation. I think everybody agrees on this one thing about the Syrian situation, is it extraordinarily complex, there are multiple parties involved, and it’s, as the expression goes, it’s the fog of war. So that’s clearly a factor here. What we need to focus on, I think, is the attempts to achieve a political solution involving the world’s leading powers. Australia needs to play a constructive role in that. We also need to ensure, in response to this atrocious terrorist attack, the security of the Australian people. That of course is a focus for the Government, it’s a focus for our security agencies for ASIO, for the Australian Federal Police working closely with state police and so on.

RICHARD GLOVER: John Kaye, Tony Abbott said that we should get in, put the shoulder even more firmly to the wheel in Syria. He didn’t talk about boots on the ground, so it’s a bit unclear what he meant. But should we go in harder in Syria?

JOHN KAYE:           It depends which wheel you put your shoulder to. But can I begin by saying like everybody, I’m just appalled by what happened in Paris and my heart goes out to Parisians. But it is the Eternal City; it’s been through hell before and it will come through. I don’t think doing more of the same is the answer here. We need to ask ourselves why is this happening? Why are 100,000 people around the world have turned so viciously against the Enlightenment, and have felt the need to take out their anger on essentially innocent people across the world.

Part of the reason - and this is no justification for the behaviour of IS, I’m as much an opponent as anybody else – but we have to understand what were the conditions that allowed a few deranged individuals to turn themselves into 100,000 deranged individuals. And I think the answer comes to two things, to chaos and cause. We created, by invading Iraq in 2003, the West created chaos, they destroyed civil institutions which were awful, I’m not a fan of the previous Iraq …

RICHARD GLOVER: Saddam Hussein.

JOHN KAYE:           … Saddam and the previous regime, but they were civil institutions that held the society together. We destroyed those. And we created a cause which, in the words of the United Nations, created the Middle East as a finishing school for international terrorism. We create …

RICHARD GLOVER: [Interrupts] A lot of people agree with you about that, but what …

JOHN KAYE:                       What do you do with it, what do you?

RICHARD GLOVER: But what do you do? Yeah.

JOHN KAYE:           Well what you do with it is you don’t do more of the same. You don’t create more chaos and you don’t create more cause. I have sympathy for French military planners, I understand emotionally what they’re doing, but they’re making life worse for themselves and for everybody else. Bombing innocent civilians adds casualties to chaos and cause, it creates another range, another recruiting ground for the deranged individuals who run IS.

RICHARD GLOVER: And yet, you can’t let IS hold this state where they can generate money, they can generate income, they can generate more converts.

JOHN KAYE: Absolutely, but the solution isn’t to go in there and repeat the errors of what we did in Iraq and create more states, more failed states, more opportunities for these sorts of people to create more recruits, or to bring in more recruits. The answer is slow, and difficult, and painful, and much less viscerally appealing than bombing. It’s rebuilding societies, it’s rebuilding civil institutions, and it’s removing the cause, getting our troop- part of the cause is Western troops, to put it bluntly Christian and Jewish troops, in the Middle East. Which is causing huge problems, causing a huge attractive nuisance if you like, an attraction for people to be recruited. Getting our troops out of there, putting- working with international communities, stopping Saudi Arabia, if it is indeed doing so as been alleged, stopping them funding IS. Those sorts of, if you like, diplomatic solutions, have a chance of working. We can strangle this off. It will take us 20 years. But I say if we bomb we’ll still be there in 20 years fighting the same battle.

RICHARD GLOVER: Wendy Machin?

WENDY MACHIN:  Richard I think part of the problem is we are all trying to analyse this through our own understanding and our own lens, which is quite rational and civilised. And I think a lot of the people, the people who are doing these terrible things, these atrocities that we’ve seen in Paris and a number of other places over the last few months, and it does seem like there’s an escalation in some of the activity, do not think the same way as we do, they don’t care. And I’m not sure that I agree with John in terms of the Iraq war being the cause of this, I think there is a group of people there that have a very warped view of their religion, of Islam, and I think if I was a Muslim I would be horrified at what’s going on, I think most of them are. And it must be terribly, terribly worrying and frightening for them, because of the backlash that this engenders, and I think that’s what they’re trying to do. So I think- I’m struggling to see what the solution is here, I think it’s got to be a combination of things. I don’t think doing nothing in terms of a military reaction is the answer. I mean as you say, they are getting established, they are establishing a foothold, a centre, a powerbase, that gives them resources, they are killing people and doing atrocious things to them in those towns as they take control. So I don’t think a do-nothing option is palatable there, no matter how angry we might be. But I think the challenge is to try and keep a cool head and look at a combination of things, and I think that’s how we react here, and we can talk a bit later about who we let come here and how.

RICHARD GLOVER: But let’s …

WENDY MACHIN:  And how the media also responds to this, because I think there’s- the important part of this is the communications about what they do, and amongst themselves.

PAUL FLETCHER: Just to pick up on that …

RICHARD GLOVER: Well- sorry, yeah.

PAUL FLETCHER: … if I may quickly, Richard. I don’t agree with John’s suggestion that what … that military action in Syria is ill-judged. Bear in mind that what Daesh are doing is establishing control over large territories, significant numbers of cities, and they need to be pushed out. That has to happen. Now as Prime Minister Turnbull has said, there need to be several strands of effort here; there certainly needs to be work towards a diplomatic solution with the major powers reaching a way forward. But to simply stand by and let Daesh establish control over very significant cities, significant resources, is going to turn a big problem into a worse problem.

RICHARD GLOVER: Let’s talk about the refugee thing, the state MP and …

JOHN KAYE: [Interrupts] Can I- Richard, can I just …

RICHARD GLOVER: Yep sorry yes of course, yeah.

JOHN KAYE:           … very briefly respond to that. If I thought you could push Daesh out, if I thought for one minute it was possible to put troops on the ground and push them out, as Wendy said, in the logical rational world which we would like to inhabit, we could do that and there’d be people throwing flowers at us in the street, I’d have a different view. But I think we’re in a fool’s paradise if we think we can win this militarily. I know it’s hard because where mostly male politics thinks you’ve got to show strength in these situations, real strength in these situations is not about bombing and throwing in more hardware, real strength in the situation is asking the question, what caused it and addressing the causes.

RICHARD GLOVER: Well, there are some people who say the timing of Paris is all about the fact that IS is actually, for the first time, really starting to be squeezed, that the Kurds are actually getting some towns back, and that the Iraqi troops are actually standing up.

JOHN KAYE: It’s interesting, it’s the Peshmerga who are having any success at all, not the high-tech bombing raids of the Russians or the Australian or the Americans.

RICHARD GLOVER: Yeah, but there are some successes, finally.

JOHN KAYE: But those- that’s a different sort of force. That’s not our force, there’s no way- that’s not a Western force, that’s a native force, a local force, moving in and resolving the issue.

RICHARD GLOVER: Alright, what about who we let in? Andrew Fraser, the New South Wales MP says we should close our borders. He says Australia does not …

JOHN KAYE: I think Wendy should answer this [laughs].

RICHARD GLOVER: … need Middle Eastern refugees or Islamic boat people. And there are signs that two of terrorists who made their way into France were part of that tide of refugees. Has Europe and Australia become too welcoming as Andrew Fraser implies? Wendy?

WENDY MACHIN: Well, it’s a really tough one, and I think that’s a natural reaction to sort of say well gosh we’ve got to stop this happening. I think there are huge challenges just in terms of logistics, you know, looking after all these people, feeding them, housing them, finding them jobs, because they’re coming in such large numbers. But I think to suggest that if we close our borders the problem goes away is a little bit naive, with all due respect to my old friend and colleague Andrew. They are home-grown terrorists these days, we basically live in a world without borders. It’s very easy for a young bloke in England to sit on his computer and communicate with a guy in Australia or somewhere and plot something, as we’ve seen happen. So, closing our physical borders doesn’t stop this exchange of information and ideas and the radicalising of young people. So I think that’s- it’s a bit of a natural reaction, it also says no to a lot of really decent people who do come here and make a great contribution to our country, or who need to be helped.

RICHARD GLOVER: John Kaye, some might say look, at least two of those terrorists seem to have come in on that tide of humanity. Doesn’t that show that you’d have been better off if you’d have closed the borders in Europe in the same way as they’ve attempted to do in Australia?

JOHN KAYE: Paul said we should never give in to the narrow-minded views of our enemies and I really agree with him on that point. To do so, to discriminate against all people who are of the Islamic faith because of the behaviour of two would be to give in to some really old-fashioned, uncivilized values that we don’t hold. 1.6 billion Islamic people around the world, probably 100,000 of those are involved in terrorism. For every one terrorist, there are 15,999 Muslims who had nothing to do with it and the vast majority of whom are appalled by it and many of whom, the vast majority of them coming into Australia are running away from it because their lives have been made impossible by it.

It’s a deeply uncivilised thing that Andrew Fraser said. I think Andrew’s not an evil man, I think what he said was evil and I think Andrew needs to reflect on that. I…

PAUL FLETCHER: [Talking over] More than anything else, he’s reflecting a community view from the North Coast…

WENDY MACHIN: Yeah he does have support for that…

JOHN KAYE: …oh well, maybe – yeah he got a lot of…

WENDY MACHIN: …I saw the comments as well.

JOHN KAYE: He got a lot of support on Facebook. Well, you can get support on Facebook, I get a lot of support on Facebook. That doesn’t mean people- there’s a lot of support out there for me…[laughter]…I think the reality is is that Mike Baird, and I’m not a political friend of Mike Baird’s but Mike Baird, in his comments, said the good and decent things that reflect the heart and soul of good and decent Australia which is that we would never turn our backs on people because of what their religion is.

RICHARD GLOVER: There you go, the John Kaye fan club for Mike Baird, you’ve heard it here…

JOHN KAYE: On one issue, one issue.

RICHARD GLOVER: Do you go along with that, Paul Fletcher?

PAUL FLETCHER: Well, the Abbott Government in fact announced 12,000 additional places for people who were fleeing the conflict in Iraq and Syria. That’s been obviously continued by the Turnbull Government. In addition, there’s an existing humanitarian- 13,750 existing humanitarian places. That’ll rise to 18,750 by 2019, I think it is. So, a careful decision taken there and obviously with the weighing up of are there security risks? Now, clearly, there is careful screening of everybody who comes in to Australia under that program…

RICHARD GLOVER: It’s a very different situation to Europe, isn’t it?

PAUL FLETCHER: There are clearly differences but the point I wanted to make is that in the way that we manage people coming in under the Humanitarian Visa Scheme, there is careful monitoring of who comes in and a careful study of their background.

RICHARD GLOVER: That’s right, people were interviewed and chosen, rather than a – choosing Europe as is the case. It is 9 to 6 here on the political forum. Paul Fletcher is here, the Member for Bradfield, Wendy Machin, the Deputy President of the NRMA and John Kaye, the Greens MLC. Coming up, we’re going to talk about infrastructure and what are the pieces of infrastructure in this town that really make our lives better? Who are the people from our history of- from the history of Sydney that we should give daily thanks to for various pieces of infrastructure. That coming up in a second.

[Unrelated Item – traffic update]

RICHARD GLOVER: Seven to 6 is the time. It’s the 25th anniversary of the opening of Sydney’s deep ocean outfalls- a piece of infrastructure which freed Sydney’s swimmers from effectively swimming in sewage. We often complain about building new infrastructure because of the cost, the resumption of properties, the disruption during the building stages so to mark the anniversary of the outfalls, what are the best bits of infrastructure ever built in Sydney? The ones we should feel forever grateful for. Wendy Machin.

WENDY MACHIN: Well I have to say I am old enough to remember that- the cleaning up of the beaches and was in government when that happened so I just hate to think how long ago that was now. Doesn’t seem like 25 years. I’ve got a big list; the Harbour Bridge would be on it, you’re absolutely right. I drove over it middle of the day today when it wasn’t so busy and you know no matter how many times I do that, I just love it. Especially if it’s a great day, I get a real buzz, love looking up above at the arches.

RICHARD GLOVER: And they built it assuming the city would grow…

WENDY MACHIN: Yeah they actually had unusual foresight which we don’t see so much of. The Opera House of course I think has to be on that list. I think Olympic Park turning what was a precinct with an abattoir and an old meatworks and you name it into a great area which I think could be done more of I think that’s still a work in progress, that’s a fantastic stadium, some great open space so like some lungs (*) and green space in the geographic centre of the Sydney and on a smaller scale I’d have to say I love our little ocean and harbour pools. A lot of little hidden gems tucked away all around the waterfront that are just really quaint and cute and not many people know about but they’re just a real wonderful well-kept secret in Sydney.

RICHARD GLOVER: People throwing suggestions our way on Facebook and Christina says exactly that- all the rock pools and the beaches around Sydney. All the walking tracks around Sydney Harbour and coasts, Leslie, thank you. The Australian Museum, the Powerhouse Museum so a couple of buildings included here but we’re talking earlier and the parks are amazing aren’t they? Because this is missing in some cities- the fact that people put aside Hyde Park, Centennial Park, Parramatta Park.

WENDY MACHIN: And we’ve got Centennial Park, you know, we went out on the weekend and took our dog and you know, it’s just fantastic, it’s a beautiful, beautiful park with again catering for lots of interests, you know horse riding, runners, great café, we were by Centennial Park which again someone had the foresight to do adjacent to the Olympic Precinct. Also a really beautiful spot to go and I don’t know whether people are aware of it and a whole lot of those things- our gardens on the harbour here the Mount Annan Gardens. So lots of those- you wouldn’t really call those infrastructure that’s the only thing, they’re great facilities but they’re not infrastructure in the traditional sense.

RICHARD GLOVER: They make life better anyway. John Kaye.

JOHN KAYE: Look I struggled with this and I have to give in to my base instinct- the trains. I’m a boy, I like trains and every time I get on to a train in Sydney I know there are better trains elsewhere in the world and so on, but the idea that we all sit down regardless of what our occupation is, what our background is, we all sit down in the one relatively clean, fast moving- relatively fast moving train and we watch the traffic…

RICHARD GLOVER: Relatively cheap compared to most countries.

JOHN KAYE: Very cheap and they are relatively reliable. I do love them. And I really worship those people who 100 years sat in those long, if you like, cubicles in Redfern, those engineers who were drawing up in a ink and pen and drawing up where the tracks would go and doing the calculations, those are my real heroes. My other heroes are Driver and Moore who came up with the idea of Centennial Park and Moore Park. What a shame there weren’t the equivalent of Driver and Moore later on as we moved further west and we didn’t get the same sized parks with the same ecosystems contained within them as we marched west and south and north.

RICHARD GLOVER: The good bits of infrastructure in Sydney, the things we should be grateful for making this city a bit more liveable. Paul Fletcher?

PAUL FLETCHER: Well certainly I would go for the Harbour Bridge design by J.J.C. Bradfield after whom my electorate was named. You know he…

WENDY MACHIN: You have to say that though don’t you?

PAUL FLETCHER: I do. But he first called for it in 1903. There was legislation that went through the lower house in 1916 but the upper house failed to pass it because they thought the money needed to be spent on the war effort. It wasn’t until 1924 that legislation went through- sorry 1922 that legislation went through to authorise the Sydney Harbour Bridge, it was built- open in 1932. So an example of it takes persistence, but a wise decision taken then is benefiting us close to 100 years later and it will keep benefiting people. The rail network I agree with John but I particularly want to mention the southwest, the Leppington Station. I was out there last Friday with Andrew Constance, that is a terrific facility and kudos to the O'Farrell and Baird governments for getting that done. The North West Rail Link- that will be very exciting when it opens, the northwest rail connection. And Barangaroo- the Headland Park there- I had the chance to go to a few weeks ago. That’s a fantastic facility and that is both infrastructure and a park, it’s a combination of the two. But I think the importance of long term decisions so important and the work that the Baird Government is doing now joining with the Federal Government- things like the second Sydney Harbour rail crossing, that will be important for generations to come.

RICHARD GLOVER: But you know little- some of it are little tiny things. The fact that the harbour is cleaner than it was and some of that is due to less industrial production on the- you know the sort of change in manufacturing history really, but a lot of it’s due to a simple meshing program for the waterways which go into the Harbour which means that all those bottles and cans can be picked up and they don’t go into the Harbour.

WENDY MACHIN: But now we’ve just got to get rid of the plastic bags. I’m luck enough to live fairly close to the Harbour and you just walk down to any little beachfront where there’s a bit of sand and depending on the wind, it’s just awful, you know, it makes you almost want to join your party John.

RICHARD GLOVER: Is that right? That bad?

JOHN KAYE: You’d be welcome Wendy, you’d be totally welcome.

[Crosstalk]

WENDY MACHIN: It is that bad.

JOHN KAYE: But Wendy is right, I go kayaking and the amount of plastic bags and bottles I pull out of the water in Sydney Harbour, in Jervis Bay…

RICHARD GLOVER: It’d be worse without the netting…

JOHN KAYE: It’d be worse but it’s still enough to be killing off our marine wildlife in a way that’s unacceptable.

RICHARD GLOVER: But we have had- we’ve got some things right in the last couple of hundred years.

JOHN KAYE: Better yeah.

RICHARD GLOVER: Few things- one or two.

PAUL FLETCHER: And the sensible decisions, particularly when it comes to infrastructure can have an impact for such a long time.

RICHARD GLOVER: Yeah that’s right but thankful a few centuries, you know a century after things like Centennial Park.

WENDY MACHIN: Yeah.

RICHARD GLOVER: Exactly. We’re out of time but thank you to Paul Fletcher, who’s the Member for Bradfield, Wendy Machin, the Deputy President of the NMRA and the Greens MLC John Kaye, thank you so much.

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