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Paul Fletcher MP appears on Sky News AM agenda, 25 August 2014
HOST: And with me on the program this Monday morning now, the Shadow Assistant Treasurer Andrew Leigh and also the Parliamentary Secretary for Communications Paul Fletcher. Paul Fletcher, first to you, you’ve heard what Senator Xenophon had to say and his proposal, what is the government’s position on this?
PAUL FLETCHER: Well good morning, Kieran. The government’s position in relation to the Emissions Reduction Fund has consistently been that it’s in relation to domestic expenditure. So that point was made very clear for example in the white paper that was issued earlier this year. Now I think we heard Senator Xenophon there say that he’s put forward a proposal. He’s been in discussions with the Environment Minister Greg Hunt, as you’d expect. The Environment Minister Greg Hunt is in discussions with a range of independent senators, as you’d expect when we have a policy, and legislation we want to get through the Senate, which is directed towards achieving that 5% reduction target, achieving a reduction by 2020 on the 2000 levels of emissions in Australia, and our policy instrument to achieve that is the Direct Action policy. We’ve consistently advocated and pursued that policy for several years, two elections, and we are now obviously working to get the legislation through the Senate.
HOST:
Do you think it makes sense to have this as a complimentary measure to the Direct Action plan, the prospect of having carbon permits bought internationally, legitimate ones – that that might be a good way to compliment the efforts to meet that target?
PAUL FLETCHER:
Well look, it’s not in our policy. Minister Greg Hunt is dealing in a courteous and professional fashion, as he always does I might add, with Senator Xenophon, and all of the independent senators and crossbenchers, in relation to getting our legislation in relation to the Emissions Reduction Fund, implementing the Direct Action policy, through the Senate. And we’ll continue to have those discussions and those negotiations with a view to getting our legislation through the Senate, so that we can achieve that very important reduction in emissions that is our policy, and we can achieve that through the implementation of our Direct Action plan.
HOST:
Andrew Leigh, what’s Labor’s view of this? I recall that the idea of international permits was part of the emissions trading scheme proposal. Is that correct and what’s your view on this suggestion by Senator Nick Xenophon?
ANDREW LEIGH:
Well that’s right, Kieran. Just to respond to Paul, the Labor policy was very clearly going to be to use the most efficient, most effective way to reduce emissions, and that’s a carbon price. Now we’ve got 30 countries around the world going down that route, for the simple reason that when you put a price on carbon pollution you get more abatement. Direct Action is a misnomer because it is neither direct, nor takes action. There’s no credible economist in Australia that thinks that Direct Action alone can meet those emissions reductions targets that are vital to Australia doing our part to combat dangerous climate change. We know very well, we’ve had temperature records broken, record hot temperature last year, record hot winters, record hot summers. And as a result we’ve just got the Coalition now saying that they’re going to put in place a fig leaf, as Malcolm Turnbull very correctly noted, from a government that doesn’t really deep down believe in climate change.
HOST:
What, specifically, about the permits? Do you support the carbon permits, just to be clear that – buying international permits that might be cheaper?
ANDREW LEIGH:
Labor supports engaging with the world on this. As we move to a floating carbon price, we would have engaged with the European emissions trading scheme, and that makes plenty of sense. Wherever we get the abatement around the world doesn’t matter, so long as we’re reducing the total carbon pollution.
HOST:
So you’d be open to purchasing cheap permits from China, from elsewhere, where they might be available, and that would help Australia meet its target?
ANDREW LEIGH:
Let’s not pretend that wherever the government ends up on this, it will actually take serious action on carbon change. Having gotten rid of the cap on pollution, the government is in a position where it’s not going to be able to reduce Australia’s carbon emissions. It’s kick the can down the road. Regardless of what it does on international permits, we are –
HOST:
But Labor’s view – you’re talking about Europe. Paul Fletcher, I’ll come back to you in a moment, but I just want to clarify Labor’s view on it, because you’ve said that you would engage with Europe. What about other countries like China, the big emitters, where we might be able to purchase permits. Would Labor be open to doing that?
ANDREW LEIGH:
This is really putting lipstick on a pig, let’s be honest. The government’s Direct Action plan is one of the worst ways you might try and reduce Australia’s carbon emissions. What Australia needs is a cap on carbon pollution, and the most effective and efficient way of dealing with it –
HOST:
But this element of it, if they did go down this line that Xenophon is talking about, would be similar to what Labor was proposing anyway?
ANDREW LEIGH:
What Labor was proposing was to have an overall cap on carbon pollution, and an effective and efficient way to reduce Australia’s carbon pollution.
HOST:
But at least in this area of linking with the international community – as you said yourself, it doesn’t matter if it’s a reduction here or internationally, it’s overall reduction we’re talking about.
ANDREW LEIGH:
But Direct Action can’t fundamentally be linked in with the international system. Direct Action is an approach which is not going to meet our carbon abatement targets, and is incredibly expensive to the budget. We’ve gone from a system which is putting a price on big polluters and providing assistance to households to a system which is subsidising big polluters and we’re now seeing tax rises on households.
HOST:
Okay, well we’re specifically talking about the permit though. Paul Fletcher, any view, your thoughts on that?
PAUL FLETCHER:
I wanted to make the point that there is legislation before the parliament designed to achieve the policy objective of a 5% reduction in carbon emissions. Now the question for Labor is, will they support it or not? There is a policy measure there that will give effect to the objective that they say they support. And if they’re not going to support it, Andrew Leigh needs to explain to you and your viewers why not, because there is a policy measure there that they could support. Now he asserts it’s not going to work. I remind you that the Labor Party also said turning back the boats wasn’t going to work, so why doesn’t Labor get behind the Coalition’s plan designed to achieve a reduction in carbon emissions by 5% on 2000 levels by 2020 and we can all work forward towards this policy objective which is shared by the major parties of getting that reduction in emissions.
HOST:
We’ve got to go to a break. Back in just a moment with Paul Fletcher and Andrew Leigh.
HOST:
This is AM Agenda, thanks very much for your company. With me this morning, Andrew Leigh and Paul Fletcher. Paul, I want to get your thoughts on this report, Greg Sheridan’s report on the front of The Australian newspaper this morning, talking about expanded military role for Australia. What do you know, if anything, about this report – is this where the prime minister and government’s heading?
PAUL FLETCHER:
Well clearly there’s a very unstable and troubling situation in Iraq and Syria. The government has already announced a package of measures directed at our domestic security, for example, measures that reverse the onus of proof if people are travelling into parts of the world that the Foreign Minister has declared that there is terrorist activity going on, and of course that is designed to deal with the risk that we face when people have become hardened and radicalised, Australian citizens who are fighting in Iraq or Syria return and may wish to carry out terrorist activities here in Australia, threatening our domestic security. Now what the Prime Minister has said, for example in speeches last week, has been very, very carefully framed. And I do emphasise, of course it is the Australian Government’s position that we do not lightly take military action. What the Prime Minister has said is that we are working carefully and methodically with our allies, and I do want to emphasise that nobody is talking about combat on the ground.
HOST:
Is it a possibility that an expanded role might be there with our allies the United States? It certainly seems to be what the Prime Minster was suggesting IN that University of Adelaide speech, and as I say, Greg Sheridan extrapolating on that with his exclusive report in the paper today?
PAUL FLETCHER:
Well again, perhaps if I can just direct you to what the Prime Minister himself said in his remarks last week. He said we are talking to our partners about how we might contribute to the international efforts to protect people against the advances of the ISIS terrorists. Of course, that encompasses certainly the humanitarian work that the Royal Australian Air Force has been involved in – food drops into northern Iraq – and that’s clearly been an important element of our activities. Beyond that I simply say we don’t lightly take action, and absolutely nobody is talking about combat on the ground.
HOST:
Andrew Leigh, your thoughts – what’s Labor’s position on this and the prospect of an even greater role? There’s no mention of combat troops on the ground, but there is talk possibly of air strikes.
ANDREW LEIGH:
Kieran, we support the government’s humanitarian use of the RAAF, but we haven’t been briefed on any combat role, so we’d want to see details of what the government’s proposing on that. The situation on the ground is clearly horrendous, but Labor wants to see details before stating a position on that.
HOST:
Fair enough. Let’s look finally to the budget issue, just quickly. Paul Fletcher, the government’s going to have to compromise, and probably some significant compromise, to get a chunk of its savings and revenue measures through, the $47 billion worth which remains blocked by the Senate. Do you feel optimistic about any progress on that in the next week or two?
PAUL FLETCHER:
Well the first thing to say is that we’ve obviously already got significant measures through, some $15 billion of savings have already gone through the parliament. The next thing is that Finance Minister Mathias Coorman made the point over the weekend, we’ve got a series of structural measures that we’re seeking to achieve, for example the $7 co-payment in relation to a visit to the doctor. Now, many of these measures would not be, in the ordinary in any event, taking effect until next year, but clearly the work needs to be going on to seek support to be able to get these measures through the Senate, so that’s a focus for the government. We have a plan here to get debt and deficit under control. It’s the only plan around. Labor doesn’t seem to have a plan. Andrew Leigh needs to explain whether Labor actually cares about debt and deficit and whether it’s going to do anything about it.
HOST:
We’ve only got about 40 seconds left, Andrew, but just quickly, your response.
ANDREW LEIGH:
Kieran, the government’s approach to budget negotiations seems to be at the moment to crack its knuckles and say ‘Nice economy here, shame if something happened to it.’ You’ve got ministers unable to agree whether there’s a budget emergency or whether everything’s hunky-dory. You’ve had Christopher Pyne – a couple of months saying there was going to be an increase to medical research – now yesterday saying that the government would be cutting medical research if it doesn’t get its way. Fundamentally, this is a bad budget. The government needs to take measures like cuts to supports for young people back to the drawing board. Labor’s not going to do what the Liberals did in 1975, but we are going to apply the fairness test to a budget which not only breaks promises, but hits the fundamental Aussie fair go, at the same time that it’s putting giveaways at the very top of the distribution, like paid parental leave.
HOST:
Andrew Leigh, Paul Fletcher, thank you both for you time this morning, appreciate it. We’re out of time.
